| 摘要 | Fareed Zakaria: Poland is one of our biggest supporters, often called our Trojan horse in Europe; so why did the Polish government announce it would withdraw all its troops from Iraq? We’re joined now by Radek Sikorski, Former Deputy Minister of Defense for Poland and currently hanging his hat at the American Enterprise Institute. Radek, thanks for joining us. So tell me; what explains Poland’s decision to withdraw troops from Iraq?
Radek Sikorski: Well it’s less than a decision; the current government which is in some political difficulty has recommended that the next government should take that decision. So it’s more to do with Poland’s electoral politics than their…
Fareed Zakaria: But clearly there’s a desire to–to start ratcheting down the involvement in Iraq.
Radek Sikorski: It’s largely financial; Poland can’t afford to subsidize the United States anymore. It’s costing us $200 million per year and we’re actually behind in our NATO commitments. We were hoping that the US–this is not a NATO operation; we were hoping that the US would help us organize our Army and shoulder this burden, but it has not materialized.
Fareed Zakaria: And is it also happening against the backdrop of the unpopularity of the war? I mean I know that in Poland, the government was very strongly supportive, but the Polish people as with most Europeans were strongly opposed to the war, right?
Radek Sikorski: Yes; but I think it’s–it’s not on principle but because it’s costing too much. I think the Poles in general saw this as an investment in the Polish/American alliance, as an investment which would create reciprocal links and obligations in the mind of American leaders for Poland’s security and therefore, we’re happy to go along with it, but we just can’t afford to anymore.
Fareed Zakaria: But it–that means there is some disappointment with the United States in–in the sense that you wanted something out of this you didn’t get?
Radek Sikorski: Indeed; Poland thought that this operation would contribute to Poland’s overall security, that by helping us organize our expeditionary forces, those forces will be available not just for Iraq, but for other emergencies including emergencies in Poland’s immediate neighborhood. But instead, we’re out of pocket and we’re–we’re behind on our NATO commitments, which is very serious.
Fareed Zakaria: So does this cast a shadow on–on the sort of special relationship between Poland and the United States? It is often said that–that you are America’s Trojan horse in Europe. Is that still true?
Radek Sikorski: Well, America has more friends than Poland in Europe. I think the spats with Europe over Iraq showed that you actually cannot construct a united Europe in opposition to the United States–that actually there are countries that want Europe and America to develop in–in a real strategic harmony and Poland is certainly one of those countries. But yes, I find it odd that the United States doesn’t want to show that it pays to be America’s friend in needs–in need–that there is a difference between real allies rather than formal ones and neutrals and–and competitors, you know. If that’s how you treat your friends, you will have fewer of them in the future.
Fareed Zakaria: Now you sound–you’re being diplomatic, Radek, but it sounds like there is a real sense of disappointment and–is that translating in–in the sense of is Poland feeling that its–its future lies more with Europe than it does with the United States–that it has to rethink some of this pro-Americanism?
Radek Sikorski: No, because apart from the Iraq operation we are doing other things together and for example, the support that Poland and the United States and Europe gave to the revolution in the Ukraine is a transatlantic success story and Poland was able to play–play a pretty prominent role in that thanks to the support of President Bush. So there are other issues where–where we can collaborate. For example, Belarus, the last dictatorship in Europe and also I think Poland would be pivotal in following events in Russia which are not going in exactly a good direction.
Fareed Zakaria: Do you worry–do Poles worry that the events in Russia, what seems to be a–a return to a kind of quasi-democratic, quasi-dictatorial system, a more assertive foreign policy–is this going to threaten Poland in some way?
Radek Sikorski: It always did in the past; the Russian authorities called the system managed democracy which reminds me of anecdote we had in the old communist days–what’s the difference between democracy and socialist democracy? The same as between the chair and the electric chair.
Fareed Zakaria: [Laughs] Now when you look at Europe, Germany, France–seem very much committed to a kind of social market economy–big welfare state, as a result increasingly very slow growth, a fair degree of hostility due to immigration increasingly, Poland and Eastern Europe–former Easter Europe seem to be in a very different place. Is that going to continue that–that the new Europe is more low-tax, low-regulation or are you going to inevitably drift toward the western European model?
Radek Sikorski: I think we will fight hard for our ability to set low corporate taxes, for example. And I think this will–this has already led to Europe having overall lower corporate taxes than the United States, but you’re quite right; we cannot afford socialism. We start from a low base where countries in Central Europe that were ruined by 50 years of communism, and we first have to produce the wealth to be able to share it out. The–the French and the Germans are–had produced their wealth in the ‘50s, ‘60s, and ‘70s, so they’re in a more comfortable position. I think it’s natural that we’re–we’re aspiring countries and therefore high growth.
Fareed Zakaria: When you talked to young Poles today, is it your sense that they share what I know is your admiration and affection for America, or do you think they think of themselves more–in more specifically European ways?
Radek Sikorski: I think there is a generational gap here; people of my generation who remember communism, who remember martial law, who remember Ronald Reagan’s solidarity with us when we were on the other side of the Iron Curtain and also actually on the nomenklatura side, on the communist side, these–remember that Fulbright Scholarships for example were granted to both dissidents and the communists and–and that helped to bridge those gaps. But young people today don’t remember it; they see their career patterns stretching all the way to Brussels rather than Washington. They go on scholarships to European universities. They can enjoy low domestic fees at other European universities. Journalists also tend to go on their internships for example within Europe and that will–will slowly but surely create a new kind of psychology and I wish the United States were more–were more energetic in that game of–of influence, instead of which it’s increasingly hard to actually get into this country.
Fareed Zakaria: Well on that note, we have to stop. Thank you, Radek Sikorski.
Radek Sikorski: Thank you. |
